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05/28/2010

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Waterbaby

"If
America becomes a totalitarian country it’s the dream realized of the
Progressive Movement and public education made it possible." -- To that I'd add the media. Their overreaching impact cannot be underestimated. 

Snowy
From what I’ve experienced in the government schools curricula: the “Progressive” movement has improved mankind and is part of mans’ continuous march of progress.
Not sure where you're coming from here, Zak. If you're trying to argue that the progressive movement is trying to bring about communism, then there's no point in me commenting further, as that is just emotive BS; beloved of conservatives, I know, but BS just the same. If you're trying to argue that the progressive movement hasn't accomplished anything, then that is to deny history. Fine in Texas textbooks, but wrong, wrong, wrong. The credit for human progress is shared by men and women of all political persuasions, and it is pointless to argue otherwise.

Last time I looked you still have a free press, and a democracy. I don't see any progressive movement aiming to do away with these cornerstones of democracy. Although I'll grant you that a good argument could be mounted regarding who really runs the country no matter which government is in power, and this argument isn't restricted to the U.S.

Patricia Volonakis Davis

It took me a while to understand the point you were making. You're saying that the Progressive movement is a pre-conceived purposeful plot to overthrow the country and not just an ill defined ideology based on emotion and myopia. Got it. You're also connecting the dumbing down of American schools with the progressive movement and not with any other  number of other factors, including socio-economic ones and the rampant abuse of tenure. Got that, too. The comment about the media by Waterbaby has alot of merit in my opinion. 

Hafidz Baharom

[this is good] I believe what's missing in the education system is objectivity. This is what's missing. While the school curriculum is set, objectivity of students, teachers and society with the ability to argue rationally is what will make an education system flourish.

Trailblazer

[this is good] You brought back memories about the way it was when I grew up in CT attending  pubic schools, and  compared to what I hear is being taught, and not being taught today, is a nightmare.


 'I don’t need Eleanor Roosevelt or Hillary Clinton to lecture me about life- I had a mother and she was wonderful." Mine too:)

Cryin' for the Dyin'




Hello..I agree with what Snowy said..but as a human commentary I find that many of the things I did and saw you also did.  I am a little older..but still understand what you are saying.  For the most part I believe that what we are experiencing in the United States is a result of 'flash in the pan' politics and reaction.  As far as progressive goes..I am a 'show me' kind of guy.   My wife and I, under the radar, (no media help), actually slowed the irresponsible development of 10 miles of California coastline.  I know what a commited person can do.  Governers say what we did was impossible.  It was not that difficult..it was just boring and sententious.  One also had to be thick skinned in changing the inertia of any one person..much less a corporation or developer.  Suffice to say we did not lie and learned a great deal..while doing something good..for no money.  I will always believe that any law..or negative act..which detracts from the beauty and implement of life..anything that dehumanizes humans..or decaninizes dogs..and so on..simply will not work.  That is at the root of all social feelings I have. There is a lot of science..rhetoric and pap..to substantiate any argument or discussion.  I believe the best one has to offer is what they should offer.  I do not disagree with a point of view that a person may have and found your posting interesting.  The old adage..'out of conflict comes knowledge' is probably true..I paraphrased and added..'knowledge should never produce conflict'.  I enjoyed reading your minibio..very cool and well recieved here..Peace Tony


Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

Patricia: I didn't rule out abuse of tenure- my comments here are the reaction to the question regarding textbooks in Texas, California and or Arizona. Have you read Dr. Thomas Sowell's "Inside American Education"? Maybe you don't get me yet as I'm more complicated than what I post on a blog.

Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

They still have social promotion and their use of standardized tests hasn't improved the depth of our knowledge base.

Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

Here in Arizona 7th graders must take "Environmental Science"- the book was written by Environmental extremists and my children had the same teacher whom was an activist to the nth degree. No objectivity here, education with out thought produces clones.

Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB


It was good being a kid 50 years ago. ;) I recommend Thomas Sowell's writings, especially "Inside American Education" and "Conflict of Visions".


Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

I see the dumbing down of education, loss of objectivity, massive government borrowing and national bankruptcies as the result. We never needed a Great Leader in America we had individuals whom excelled at living and creating.

Maureen Kirk-Detberner

I'm not sure I get your point...are you saying your children did fine in school because you were there to make sure they only heard your point of view?

Don't we have propaganda all the time and not just in the 1970s?  Not sure what was special about the 70s that has ruined the AZ teachers. 

The schools in AZ are amoung the worst in the Nation.  I wouldn't say that you could say the US education system is bad just because you don't agree with the AZ schools. 

I'm glad I don't have children in AZ schools as I don't believe they would be receiving the education they diserve as a US citizen.  Is that what you were saying?

Maureen Kirk-Detberner

Oh I sure could have done better in school for sure!  I also could say that about my children.

Most of my early education was in private schools but I did go to public high school and found it much easier and less demanding.  But we are lucky that we have public schools as most of us can't afford to send our children to private schools.

I sent my daughter to private schools and I'm not sure that was a good idea as she need help in school and the private school didn't know how to help her and by the time I put her in public school they didn't help either.  She did graduate from HS and went on to college..she didn't graduate college but has a professional job and makes great money.

All in all I would say that my children received a good educations and as a result both make wonderful salaries and both have good careers.  Could it have been a better education?  Of course but were they the best students..no they weren't.  I can't blame the education system on their lack of interest in school ...I think that was more peer influence.

Catalina

"I'm glad I don't have children in AZ schools as I don't believe they
would be receiving the education they deserve as a US citizen."


- Agree 100% (just exchange AZ with CA).

Cryin' for the Dyin'

Hello..I will cosign that.  When people are looking for something..in some times..anything..they have a tendency to be extreme.  To overvalidate and look..thus producing the 'robotic' and denying their true 'gift'.  If one does not know themselves..what is the point?  In Sweden the students grade the teachers.  Montessorian schools have taken a bad rap..but the concept and in many cases, the application is valid.  A child earning and learning in his nature.  Any 'extract of society' is suspect to be corrupt and deviod of human conscience.  The intelligence is as important as the morality or foundation.  I am not using the word morality in a straight laced sense..I guess what I mean is decency.  As sophistication and finesse..consideration..comes with upbringing in society..so does the negative aspect..almost always it is a robotic or cloned..attempt.  It simply does not work effectively.  People are born wonderful..for the most part..I believe that purity should be enhanced to their individual purpose..

In an aside..the environment was important in what we accomplished.  There was also..unqualified labor..usery..no insurance or bonding..fraudulent use of senior and disabled section 8 funding..to absorb building costs..(these folks are wealthy)..golf courses built on school land..no permits..leading to rude and displaced parking for workers..who many times said they 'no hable englis'..It was a real mess and an exciting adventure..in a few words..it was not right..forget legal..it just was not morally right..and in many cases illegal..most cases..Union men..who did good work..limited in picket hours..and out of work for illegal scabs..corruption in local agencies..murder..it was a mess..Peace Tony

Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

You might want to re-write and proof read your post as your writing tends to ramble on and on.

Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

Are we breeding a society that doesn't understand the consequences of their actions?

Cryin' for the Dyin'

Hey Zak..I do see what you mean..try reading one sentence at a time..

The first paragraph addresses ways to instruct a student..giving some consideration to who and what they are and the ways available..

The second is a statement about what we encountered..addressing grass roots corruption by local and state agencies..metaphorically working 48 hours a day..it is difficult to point up negative aspects of a situation when people simply 'do not want to hear it'..believe me I would never have spent 20 years of my life..if I was not attacked and saw no way out..but to confront and set forth a truth..I am doing a history of that time and what happened to us..and the people who found faith in delusional implement..causing worldwide damage..that started right across the street..Peace Tony

Emmi


Don't you find it a bit contradictory that you want the freedom to celebrate (I'm assuming you mean pray) on school grounds but you simultaneously want to censor the works of specific historical figures?


Emmi

Just out of curiosity, which environmental extremists do you refer to? I don't remember any extremists writing kids' textbooks.

Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

I didn't mention anything about prayer or conducting religious services. it was only in passing that this was a time before the eradication of American culture.

Zak Klemmer, ACS, ALB

You would have to be there- the teacher was a wacko & the course was designed to scare children/ It was very one sided and just a propaganda course.

ken

just like many areas where liberals/socialists  have pushed pc'ing beyond the realm of reality,there will be a flash back to this foolishness by the progressives.in some ways it has already begun,there is a new private school starting up every day,there are more and more people home schooling,and now texas has decided to fight back and push things back to the right.it happened with guns,it happened with keeping people in jail,it happened with the new immagration laws in arizona,and people will get fed up with the socialist garbage in school and clean house..................

Kevin

"Don't you find it a bit contradictory that you want the freedom to celebrate (I'm assuming you mean pray) on school grounds but you simultaneously want to censor the works of specific historical figures?"

I don't follow your reasoning at all. One has nothing to do with the other. The former is freedom of religion, and the latter is freedom of speech. And I don't recall him mentioning censorship. Specifically which historical figures do you think he wanted censored?


Emmi

...So you would not be in favor of prayer once again being allowed on school grounds? Are you saying it was just a good memory, or would you actually want that back?

I'm not talking about the teacher. I'm talking about the book to which you referred: which book was it, Zak?

Here in Arizona 7th graders must take "Environmental Science"- the book was written by Environmental extremists

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